discussion of Monster anime rundown

Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 12:37 am

I'll be using this thread to both point out differences/interesting notes on the Monster anime, and review each fansub group's version, so you know which one is the best to get (according to me, of course).

I was going to lock it so that only I could post and thus the thread would remain tidy, but I've decided to leave it open for others to post any comments or questions they have regarding my statements/reviews. Please DO NOT POST if it's not for a good reason, or I will most likely delete your post.

I will be referring to things people might consider "spoilers" so if you haven't read the manga yet, don't read my personal reflections, just look for the "recommended" part.

So, without further ado, let's get to it!

Chapter 1
Herr Dr. Tenma
Covers Chapters 1-2 (v1c1-v1c2)

Currently available versions: Raw, ToTan, Anime-Keep, Soldats, Anime-Kraze

My thoughts: I was thoroughly impressed. The production team managed to put together a presentation that was heavy, atmospheric and dignified. While the beginning of the story is often taken to be the introduction to a medical thriller, the music and sound effects are too moody and ethereal for many people to assume there isn't going to be a lot more at work. The beginning and ending themes were extremely classy! There were no lyrics for the opening, and the ending was sung in English by singer-songwriter David Sylvian. No disposable J-pop garbage here. The voice acting was relatively solid. Dr. Tenma sounded rather young, although it's yet to be seen if his voice will change after the story jumps ahead a decade. In contrast, Eva sounds much older. She does sound very dignified and regal, but she also sounds like she's 10-15 years older than Tenma. The young child of the Turkish woman whose husband is dead had a very annoying "adult trying to be a kid" voice, which was grating. On the other hand, the actor who did Anna's "kill" line sounded convincingly like a little girl. I would describe the animation as "good where it counts." In motion scenes, it moves smoothly and attractively. Several times in the episode there are head shots of characters talking that look stilted, but as mentioned, these parts don't need nice animation, so I'm content with the trade-off. All in all, as I first said, I was quite impressed and I am very much looking forward to the next episode.

Fansub Reviews

ToTan: Theirs was the first version to appear on BT. Overall it was a good job, except for the following issues: There were a few cases of oddly-worded English and a few minor typos, and I have some suspicions about the originality of their translations. Several lines were phrased exactly the same as my original manga translations, and others were too similar to be chalked up to coincidence. It seems odd, because they both corrected mistakes that I made in my script and successfully altered lines of dialogue that were changed in the transition to anime, so why use my work as a base? Also, they used two different kinds of apostrophe in the subtitles, one that looked nice and one that took way too much space up. Stick to the compact one, please.

Anime-Keep: In general, Anime-Keep's version is slightly better than Totan's, although not without its own problems. While there aren't any issues with non-fluent English, some choices of dialogue were poor, in my opinion, such as changing Anna's "kill" line to "please kill." Also, one thing that I was really hoping would NOT happen but had pretty much resigned myself to seeing was the use of Japanese suffixes in the translation, and sure enough, they popped up several times in the episode. Despite the fact that I commonly practiced the use of inserting Japanese suffixes into my translations until a short time ago, even back in the days when I started Monster I made the conscious decision to NOT use suffixes because this story takes place in GERMANY, not JAPAN. Heinemann is not saying "Tenma-kun" in German! Looks like shit. While I don't expect them to change it, I must say that it looks terrible to me. By the way, Totan did NOT use suffixes, for which I commend them. Anime-Keep also managed to mistransliterate the lyrics of the ending song (as did Totan) even though it's in English. Come on, people!

Soldats: In comparison to the two earlier versions, Soldats is more solid. My only complaints are trivial, and I didn't see any grammatical/language errors. Like Anime-Keep, they decided to use suffixes, but, also like Anime-Keep, they translated "san" as Mr. and only included "kun" in the subtitles. This makes me wonder if both Soldats and A-Keep are only leaving it in because of the lack of an easy English equivalent. Unfortunately, they decided to translate the 'Kill' line as "Kill him..." which IMO is a no-no, since you can't infer that she's referring to Johan from just the word "kill." It won't really matter in a few episodes anyways, but for now I frown upon that. Soldats did manage to nail the ending lyrics perfectly, which neither of the other two groups have done (bravo!). Overall, this is a very solid release.

Anime-Kraze: An excellent job. There weren't any major English mistakes or grammatical pitfalls, and in general it was a flawless translation. I was very pleased that they decided to omit Japanese suffixes from the dialogue. It only serves to make their excellent translation look more professional and less like an amateur fansub. I did notice that they spelled his name Kenzou the first time and then switched to Kenzo. I myself began by spelling his name Kenzou, but changed it to Kenzo partway through the manga. They did make one mistake on the ending lyrics, which wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't in the line that happens to be the title of the song, and is written in English in the credits (For the Love of Life). This is my recommendation for the best version of the first episode.

Next Episode: "Downfall" (title of v1c3)

Roadie Joined: 10 Mar 2004 Posts: 45 Location: Located

To be fair A-Keep only messed up one word in the ending theme, where ToTan had a few glaring errors. I agree with most of the points you made above though I didn't find the kid overly annoying (I guess I'm used to it). I kind of liked the slightly older Eva, she comes across as having been in the scene longer, and it might tie in to her always being in "political relationships." The age difference also highlights her being with Tenma because of his skills, the hot new doctor in town kinda thing. I don't like the blonde hair myself though. Perhaps they made Anna's hair darker to tell her apart from Johan (though they are twins) so had to make Eva's lighter to compensate?

I found A-Keeps translation better cosmetically than ToTans, less blatant spelling / grammar mistakes, but it often had very akward wordings. Some lines just don't come out right "before we were doctors, we were just scholars" vs something more like 'we are academics before doctors' in ToTan's which clearly shows a hierarchy of importance rather than something chronological. All in all I might actually recommend ToTan over A-Keep just because it seemed to on average create a clearer understanding of what is going on.

The music themes are a very pleasant surprise... instead of skipping over them I actually went back and played them again.

Fan Boy Joined: 09 Apr 2004 Posts: 7

erutan wrote:

To be fair A-Keep only messed up one word in the ending theme, where ToTan had a few glaring errors. I agree with most of the points you made above though I didn't find the kid overly annoying (I guess I'm used to it). I kind of liked the slightly older Eva, she comes across as having been in the scene longer, and it might tie in to her always being in "political relationships." The age difference also highlights her being with Tenma because of his skills, the hot new doctor in town kinda thing. I don't like the blonde hair myself though. Perhaps they made Anna's hair darker to tell her apart from Johan (though they are twins) so had to make Eva's lighter to compensate?

I found A-Keeps translation better cosmetically than ToTans, less blatant spelling / grammar mistakes, but it often had very akward wordings. Some lines just don't come out right "before we were doctors, we were just scholars" vs something more like 'we are academics before doctors' in ToTan's which clearly shows a hierarchy of importance rather than something chronological. All in all I might actually recommend ToTan over A-Keep just because it seemed to on average create a clearer understanding of what is going on.

The music themes are a very pleasant surprise... instead of skipping over them I actually went back and played them again.

My problem with A-Keeps version started with the prologue, which makes less sense than the ToTan. It would appear that ToTan translator have read the manga before, therefore gotten a better grasp of where the story is going.

Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:09 pm

I agree with the both of you. The "before we were doctors" line was uncharacteristically bad compared to the rest of AKeep's script. In general ToTan seems to have done their manga homework with Monster already, while AKeep is jumping into it without consulting or researching the manga first, which is a bad idea, especially with a story as tightly plotted as Monster's. You really ought to know what's going on so you don't translate yourself into an awkward position. At present, I would rate both versions equal.

Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:31 pm

Chapter 2
Downfall
Covers Chapters 3-4 (v1c3-v1c4)

Currently available versions: Raw, ToTan, Anime-Keep

My thoughts: The second episode was every bit as good as the first. The more macabre scenes are given impressively frightening and ominous sound effects and music. The scene in which Johan opens his eyes after Dr. Tenma speaks to him on his bed had a deliciously creepy sound. I continue to be very pleased with the class and dignity with which they are handling the anime. Upon repeated viewings, I noticed the whisky bon-bons had been replaced with Werther's candies. Weird.

Fansub Reviews

ToTan: In general, episode 2 was better than the first one. I didn't notice any flagrant typos, but there were still a few cases of awkward English, such as "Your operation before..." These are less frequent then they were in the first episode, however. I've decided I like their ending effect the nicest, with the lyrics scrolling upward and changing color with the picture, but they're still incorrectly transcribed.

Next Episode: "A Case of Murder" (title of v1c5)

Fan Boy Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 3

First of all I'd like to thank Stephen for taking his time to translate this manga and again for reviewing the anime. I would have to say I agree with him about the quality of the animation. As someone who works in medicine and looks at Neuro MRIs all day, I'd have to say I was really impressed with the quality Madhouse has put into the anime. An example would be Johann's XRays. It took me a second to realize it was indeed animated and not an inserted picture, really amazing. If they can keep this up for 70 episodes, then wow, we're in for a real treat. Of course, Urasawa's penchant for immaculate details should make it easy.

I was curious about your irritation towards the use of japanese suffixes. When Director Hienemann calls Tenma "Tenma-kun" on the phone, what would you have liked it translated as? Mr. Tenma? It seems rather odd that the director, as someone who is somewhat close to Tenma personally, would call him "Mr. Tenma" or "Herr Tenma" (the only valid translations I could think of) on the phone in a Western country. In leaving it in japanese however, I felt it seemed more natural, with their predisposition for honorifics even among close collegues. However my japanese skills, at around a 2nd grader level, are somewhat lacking in comparison to yours. I do totally understand your point about it being set in Germany and thought i'd present both sides of the argument.

My group [soldats] is working on a sub of Monster as well that should be out shortly, I hope you'll give it a watch and give us your valued opinion. If you're curious, I am, thankfully, not the translator.

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:05 am

HKenshin: Thank you for your comments, and of course I will be checking out the Soldats version when it's released.

To respond to your question about suffixes, when the anime is set in Germany, I consider the characters to be speaking in German. Thus, I find it extremely grating and out-of-place when I see text like "Tenma-kun" sprinkled in among the dialogue, because naturally, there is no "kun" in German. In my manga translations, I chose to replace "Tenma-kun" with simply "Tenma." It works rather well, both showing the director is in a position to refer to Dr. Tenma by his last name only, while also maintaining the "superiority" that usage of the -kun suffix suggests in Japanese. I don't particularly expect any groups, Soldats included, to sidestep around this issue, as it certainly easier to just leave them in and let the viewer deal with it. But I have a lot of respect for a translator who is willing to remove them from the dialogue, which is why I am very happy that ToTan is doing so. I frankly was not expecting any of the fansubbers working on Monster to choose that translation method.

At any rate, I'm happy that some of the fansubbers such as yourself are willing to make contact and even acknowledge the existence of us lowly manga scanlators =P

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:07 am

I thought that the discovery of the bodies at the end of the episode was very well done. The way the faces were half-shadowed and the method in which they built it up was in some ways better than the manga, I thought.

I'm not quite sure how Johan managed to ensure that the three people he wanted to kill would all eat the candies (and nobody else did), but perhaps we can attribute that to his supreme intelligence. Of course, this is a "problem" with the manga too.

-Chris

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:09 am

Dude, he's the anti-christ, he can make people eat candy!

Fan Boy Joined: 14 Apr 2004 Posts: 6

Regarding the Japanese suffix issue, I'm actually inclined to believe they should be left in. I definitely understand the arguments presented, but as a viewer, I feel that something is lost in the translation if the suffix is excluded. Many fansubbing groups drop the suffix notation for English audiences who may not comprehend the meaning of it, and I've always felt like they were assuming the Japanese context around the name doesn't matter.

Also, in situations like this, I'm not sure we can jump to conclusions about what language is being used. There's no telling what language they would use when speaking to a Japanese doctor, and we certainly can't assume they wouldn't address him in Japanese fashion.

Admittedly, I am here because the anime has sparked my interest in the manga, and I am quite pleased with Stephen's explanation. Although I'm dubious as to whether the anime fansubbers chose to drop the suffix for such a good reason. ;)

But after reading all of this, I have to say that I don't think there is a "right" way in this case. I wasn't impressed with ToTan's (yes, I did think it was suspicious that they used the exact language in the manga), and I have yet to see any other versions. So we'll see. Thanks for taking the time to review the different fansubbers' episodes, and thanks even more for translating the manga!

Fan Boy Joined: 14 Apr 2004 Posts: 2 Location: Canada

While I haven't seen the ToTan version, and probably won't, I would just like to say that the first episode was awsome.

The voice casting was spot on in my estimation, and despite the blonde Eva I was quite happy with the style. The issue with the suffixes thing was quite annoying, and frankly stupid, but I was quick to overlook it. As for the soundtrack, pure genious. The opening theme sends chills down my spine, and the ending just fits in so nicely. I really can't wait for the OST.

One nagging question though is "How often does Monster air?" is it like once a week, twice a month?

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 7:47 pm

loreofserpents wrote:

Also, in situations like this, I'm not sure we can jump to conclusions about what language is being used. There's no telling what language they would use when speaking to a Japanese doctor, and we certainly can't assume they wouldn't address him in Japanese fashion.

He mentioned that we shouldnt jump to conclusions about what language is being used, but if you read the manga, it does in fact reference what languages they are using. As an example in an early chapter (I forget which) tenma is doing an operation with some other surgeons and it's obvious that he doesn't know what they are talking about but he is just doing the operation. At least that's what I got from that scene, I could be wrong, but yeah.

Fan Boy Joined: 14 Apr 2004 Posts: 2 Location: Phoenix, AZ

First of all, I do not represent ToTan, however I do know quite a few members fo the group. They have read the manga more than I thought was humanly possible, so of course there would be some carried over assumptions and methods in the translations, however they did not copy it by any means. ToTan strives for quality and speed, and with each release gets closer and closer for the best quality possible, I mean I've watched it become better and seen the ambition behind it. As for the speed, these people are insanly religous about thier fansubs, hell people ditch class, work on editing in class on laptops, and are positioned globally so work continues almost 24/7. This makes for incredibly fast releasing that does not sacrafice quality. Every mistake they have made they strive to ensure it never happens again. I stuck with them through GSG (which, btw they were the first group that I can remember to release episodes, but still had great quality compaired to most of the other groups) and now with Monster, every mistake made with GSG is not appearing here. They listen to all constructive feedback to prevent any errors possible. I think it's rather horrible for you people to critizise a group that works so hard to put out quality work. Also, shouldn't translations be roughly the same to begin with, after all... that's exactly what it is, a language conversion.

Fan Boy Joined: 14 Apr 2004 Posts: 1

I apologise for the length, and will put in bold the main points for those who don't want to read the whole thing.

I'm not sure to be mad at this thread or take the compliments it gives my group, ToTan. I am not the leader, but I've basically taken PR role for the group.

Stephen, I totally understand your aprehention about theft of your scripts. I can assure you ToTan is not directly using your scripts. Most of the members have read your translations of the Manga, and that is the main reason we are doing this show, we loved the manga and knew we'd love the anime.

I'm sorry, but since 3 out of 4 of our translators read your manga translations, there is bound to be some remembering of the manga when watching the anime, and that is the most logical main reason I can find as to the great similarities in some parts.

I actually have not read the your scanlations prior to yesterday. Yet, I recognized some of your phrasings as virtually the same as my own rephrasings. I heavily edit the script, and sometimes "great minds think alike" I guess. Obviously that's not the only cause, but as I have said, all the translators read your translations of the manga.

Also, we did leave out the name suffixes, such as kun/san, because of the setting of the series, Germany. It seems very out of place to have a translation have these suffixes, it's not natively German or English. We did the same thing with our Gunslinger Girl release, which was set in Italy, for the same reason. If people know enough to want to have the suffixes, they are probably listening closly to the Japanese dialog anyway.

Here is an excerpt of a post on another forum, which I will not name because I don't know about the policies on this board about linking to other boards...

[QUOTE=Kagari-chan]The reason you might say Totan's is closer to the manga is because a lot of their translation is similar to the text scripts posted here. http://stephen.swoo.net/monster/monster.html They could have used those, you know.[/QUOTE]
If you are implying as I you think are, that we simply took those scripts and edited them heavily, we didn't. The translators have read the manga, more than once, and have loved it. Thus yeah, we probably ended up sounding similar to the manga. If you think we stole the manga translations because of our speed, I'd like to point out that, except for one episode, we were the first to release the Gunslinger Girl episodes we did as well. Here's a copy of a log, please don't think I'm trying to brag, I'm trying to explain, and I feel a bit attacked.

Quote:

[04:51] <chynyj2> !GsG-13
[04:51] <chynyj2> sweet
[04:51] <Lisak> hehe, skipped my work today because of gsg... didn't have any sleep the night before either... ^_^;
[04:52] <Lisak> but we just want to end it with a style Wink

[04:52] <CompShrink> lol, yeah skipped studying for a test to edit gunslinger...
[04:52] <chynyj2> wow
[04:52] <Lisak> that's the spirit of otaku Wink

[04:52] <CompShrink> and went slightly over my bandwidth cap finding a good raw...
[04:52] <chynyj2> that's dedication

We sub as best we can. We know people don't like to wait. Speed is deffinately not more important than quality, but we only work on one show at a time, a show we love dearly, and we put our all into that show, a lot of effort, and alot of time, without regards to what time of the day it is. We also have members in different time zones, such as parts of Europe and the US. So, yes, the end result is a fast release.

This fast release is by no means because we skipped translation or anything like that. We are only doing one show at a time, and are dedicated.

Obviously, you have to be your own judge. I hope you continue to enjoy the releases, and though I was going to read the manga, I have decided to only read it after I edit the corresponding episode, so as to not make accidental coincidences with the manga from remembering what I read previously.

EDIT: Monster airs Wednesdays at 12:30 AM in Japan, which is GMT +9. Yes, it is weekly, and the director announced it will be 70 episodes.

Roadie Joined: 10 Mar 2004 Posts: 45 Location: Located

Kyouto, I think you're missing the point of this thread... it is to compare and criticize fan subs of the anime for the fans of the manga. It isn't ToTan bashing, if you look through it theirs is recommended equally or above a-keeps.

edit: ok, have read the post below.

kyouto wrote:

This makes for incredibly fast releasing that does not sacrafice quality. Every mistake they have made they strive to ensure it never happens again. [...] They listen to all constructive feedback to prevent any errors possible. I think it's rather horrible for you people to critizise a group that works so hard to put out quality work.

I'm afraid the speed did sacrifice quality, there were numerous blatantly mispelled words throughout the release. In spite of that I still prefer their version over anime-keep's as they are obviously more familiar with the manga (though I'm can't vouch for an ineffable understanding). But if you objectively comparing the two current releases ToTan does have worse spelling, and quite frankly it seemed that getting a two day turn around took precedence over using spellcheck.

Please fix the "If you gain me now" "trade-on" "You can only do so" in the ending karaoke. Smile

moonlight wrote:

As for the soundtrack, pure genius

As in pure genius on the new Tweaker album?

@CompShrink: I'll take your word about the translation wording, but I'm sure you could see why it would be a reasonable conclusion given the circumstances.

edit: I don't think stephen would have a problem with you reading the manga or even using some of his translation for the lines that are the same if it is acknowledged (of course I'm not in any way a part of MS so don't hold me to that). It might help to have a big picture of where things are headed in translating, though not reading future manga episodes will make the anime more enjoyable!